Gunformation Forum

[crimefree]

Crimefree This submission request is OPEN TO ALL. See the SAGA notice. 3rd post
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=370373577109&v=app_2373072738#!/topic.php?uid=370373577109&topic=15032

See the discussions and read the enquiry form It is vital you understand what is being asked for.

Submission Guidelines

The is no fixed format for a submission
Contact details are essential
Qualifications to comment may be included
Keep it short and to the point.
Read and understand the request
Follow a logical process
Refer to the section of the request you are commenting on
Offer any assistance if you can help with the inquirry. You can be sure others you may not like will.

The requests is :- Help in making an assessment of the FCA and is not a request to FIX it unless you know how and what the result will be.

[I have doubt if any suggestion can be based on a total lack of information. Do not try to fix the FCA unless you can show how it will work, how much it will cost, how much manpower will be needed and the return value. You cannot add to the workload nor subtract from the workload if you have no idea of what the result will be or if what you
propose will be sufficient to make any difference. If you don't know then is it not essential to know this first?]

Practice and the courts have shown
-----------------------------------------
* Inability to process in a timely manner as required by legislation.
* An arbitrary and capricious adjudication process that is not subject to disclosure or review.
* Abuse of the powers given to the SAPS.
* Non transparent
* A lack of advertising and education as required by the Act.
* An unwillingness by the SAPS to implement sections of the Act
* A disregard of the constitution by the SAPS.

The obvious consequences of excessive workload are:
------------------------------------------------------------
* High cost
* Excessive manpower
* Misused or wasted resources
* Redirection of all these away from crime fighting
* Increased crime and increased public service costs
* Lower arrest and conviction rates
* Less public safety

The obvious questions that need answers are:
---------------------------------------------------
* What is the budget in terms of money, manpower and resources
* What is the expected return value to the duty of the SAPS and crime fighting
* What is the current cost
* What is the current allocation of manpower
* What is the current allocation of resources
* What is the current return value
* What is the expected impact on crime
* What is the current impact on crime
* How and from what information are any of these calculated or estimated

Any intervention that is required by the Act must be examined because of the "potential" to cost lives, increase crime and decrease public safety. If it has no return value, costs are to high or requires excessive manpower or resources then there is little to recommend it. The Act must also be fit for the purpose it was intended.

What is the usefulness to remove guns, reduce crime or improve public safety. Costs, manpower and resource requirements, return value.

****** sections of the request to pay attention to.
[...] comments

********************************************************************
ENQUIRY INTO THE FUNCTIONING OF THE CENTRAL FIREARMS REGISTRY IN THE
SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE. REQUEST FOR SUBMISSIONS

The project will be covering the following areas-
i. The identification of gaps and weaknesses in the Legislation with
particular emphasis on Regulations.

[What is needed to be able to examine the gaps and weaknesses of the Act
and regulations?]

ii. An assessment of the different processes and mechanisms or systems
that have, or have not, been put in place in the Central Firearms
Registry to ensure the smooth and efficient implementation of the Act.

[What is needed to evaluate the success or failure of the processes,
mechanism and systems put in place by CFR?]

iii. An assessment and evaluation of the administrative and capacity
problems of or in the Central Firearms Registry that negatively affect
the timeous and proper processing of firearm licence applications and
matters related thereto, as well as the management of the database of
properly licensed firearms. This exercise will include an assessment of
the Firearms Appeal Board.

[What is needed to evaluate the administrative capacity and problems of
the CFR, the database and appeal board such that CFR can process
applications and other matters within a reasonable time and manner as
definded by other legislation?]

b. The identification of issues or interventions emanating from the legal
obligations and the implementation of the Act and Regulations that would
require the urgent attention of the Minister of Police and / or the
National Commissioner.

[What will the legal issues be that arise from any failure of the Act]

You are hereby invited to make written submissions on the areas referred
to above.

Your submissions must be directed to my office marked for the attention
of Mr M Mafologela and must reach my office by the 30 June 2010.

The submissions may be delivered in any of the following ways - Hand-
delivery:

The Secretariat for Police,
7th Floor, van Erkorn Building 21
7 Pretorius Street
PRETORIA
Facsimile: (01 2) - 393 2538
e-mail: rnafoloaelam@saps.org.za

In making your submissions, kindly ensure that you clearly and succinctly
indicate the area or issue that, in your view, you find problematic and
which needs to be addressed, together with a succinct and clear
recommendation on how you feel that the issue or area should be
addressed.
**********************************************************************

===================================================================

Here is an example that has reference to submission request section iii

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=122570224447117&topic=158

Name
Address

Thank you for the opportunity to make a submission.

There is absolutely no doubt that the safety of citizens is of paramount importance to the SAPS and this aspect cannot be subject to conjecture, beliefs and ideological agendas.

The consequences of making a mistake are far to high to rely on bogus research or unqualified unlinked assumptions of cause and effect.

Interventions of this nature need to be examined for the ability to achieve objectives without endangering the pubic in any way. They need to have a quantified return value to the core duty of the SAPS and must not distract from the normal function of the SAPS in investigating crime and ensuring punishment.

Section i
.............

Section ii
.............

Section iii
===========

It is common cause that the registration process is flawed and non-functional in any way to serve the needs of applicants. That these delays and faulty adjudications are unacceptable and counter to legislative requirements. The courts and media have adversely commented on this administrative practice.

The administrative capability of the SAPS and allocation of resources is unknown. Nor is the impact on normal functions and duties of the SAPS known. The return value in terms of a reduction of crime, the supply of guns to criminals and impact on public safety is unknown. The costs and budget have not been disclosed.

The suitable training and knowledge requirements of the SAPS staff are not tested by any recognised standard. There is no control of who or what expertise may be assigned to such tasks.

The use of the database to serve the needs of the SAPS has not been disclosed. Experience of all countries shows little or any return value of such a database. The value of the current and previous database and costs have not been disclosed nor has the return value been disclosed.

Conclusion
The capability needed, manpower, budgetary and return values are unknown or undisclosed by the SAPS in order to create a functioning system that is justified, affordable and serves the purpose of police duty or the Act.

Section b
.........

Summary
There is considerable qualified research and experience from around the world including South Africa that shows that the objectives of the Act are unlikely to be met by any intervention proposed by the Act.

The SAPS have not provided any proof or evidence that any intervention of the Firearms Control Act can achieve the objectives of the Act or needs of the SAPS.

Conclusion or recommendation
Without disclosure of the budget and an accurate assessment of the manpower, resources and cost requirements with proof of a return value in terms of the SAPS duty as defined in the constitution, it is impossible to design, modify or tinker with a non-functioning system. It is common sense that the SAPS should not waste valuable time on frivolous and
fruitless interventions.
_________________
"Two memorials remain today at Thermoplylae. Upon the modern one is engraved his response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms. Leonidas' reply was two words, Molon Labe. 'Come and get them'."

[crimefree]

If you are not happy with the FCA then now is the opportunity to have your say. The Minister has requested help with the inquiry and investigation process. Ignore this request at your own peril because when give the opportunity and you do not use it the only message you send is I agree with the FCA and anything you do.

Do not say I did not know what to do or say because that is not true there is help and guide lines you can use. The choice is yours accept the FCA or help the minister find and define the problems so they can be examined..
_________________
"Two memorials remain today at Thermoplylae. Upon the modern one is engraved his response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms. Leonidas' reply was two words, Molon Labe. 'Come and get them'."

[crimefree]

Black Gun Owners Association of SA Submission to;

The Secretariat for Police,
7th Floor, van Erkorn Building 21
7 Pretorius Street
PRETORIA
Facsimile: (012) - 393 2538
e-mail: m <mailto> afologelam@saps.org.za

Dated 09/07.10 @ 22:00

BGOASA appreciates the opportunity given to make a contribution to the Firearms Control Act inquiry process. BGOASA would like to thank the Minister for such forward thinking and willingness to find solutions to the problems that have arisen with the FCA.

BGOASA has published much comment and research on the FCA and petitioned Safety and Security for information. As an organisation that has a majority of black members BGOASA is in a position to present the views of its members.

There is little doubt of the problems that have arisen with the FCA due entirely to bad drafting, planning, a lack of valid information and the resulting inability to implement the requirements of the FCA.

BGOASA would not like to see the same mistakes made again of trying to draft or change legislation in an uninformed atmosphere or deliberate rejection of all valid information. It is thus with the hope that such occurrence of blindly following the advice of organisations and individuals with no other agenda than to mislead the process so that their objectives are gained will be avoided.

BGOASA would like to point out that there is little hope of changing a non-functional system that has only an unproven value to the SAPS, thus the restrictions on citizens and impact on their safety has not been justified.

More importantly BGOASA would not like to partake in a process that may endanger the public, cost lives and cause suffering and loss of property without first ensuring that only sound and impartially presented facts based on accredited research and experience are used in making any recommendations.

It is quite obvious that restrictions on the rights of citizens cannot be imposed if there is none or little valid justification. It is of paramount importance to the Firearms Control Act and citizens of South Africa that justification of rights restrictions be shown to be valid.

That the impact on crime and safety of citizens is well documented and not in any doubt as well at the impact and cost of any measures proposed. Where doubt exists any proposal must favour the safety of citizens and not be implemented until the doubt is removed.

Legislation of this nature, which has the potential to cost lives, cannot just be implemented because it sounds like a good idea or is based on popular beliefs instilled by radical organisations that have other agendas.

BGOASA has every confidence the Minister will act in the best interests of citizens and remove all doubts and show the justification of any sections of the Firearms Control Act.

In Common Cause,

BGOASA Advisory Board (BAB)
P.P. Abios Khoele: National Chairman; Black Gun Owners Association

www.bgoasa.co.za
Office: 011 972 0010
Cell: 083 318 9417
Admin: 074 125 6938
_________________
"Two memorials remain today at Thermoplylae. Upon the modern one is engraved his response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms. Leonidas' reply was two words, Molon Labe. 'Come and get them'."